Ivonne Thein

Interview by Julia Hartmann

Berlin-based artist Ivonne Thein spoke to Vienna-based curator and art historian Julia Hartmann recently about Thein’s life as an artist and a mother, and how the experience of being an “artist with child” changed her practice to the better. The two discuss issues of body-consciousness and mass culture central to Thein’s practice, including the beauty and fashion industry and the role of both conventional and social media in perpetuating and amplifying such dynamics. Life and death are also major topics in Thein’s oeuvre, and she isn’t afraid to confront us with the sort of existential questions we’re usually reluctant to acknowledge much less speak about ourselves.

Julia Hartmann (JH): How not to be seen as a body, The self and the other, and I feel much better since I stopped eating chocolate were produced in 2019 and to me, they share similarities such as a subtle monochrome, the use of surfaces like screens and skins and the fragmentation of the body. I’d like to kick off our conversation by discussing these newest works in more detail and then segue into your older works that also deal with positive and negative body images but in a different way. Can you first tell me more about these three works and how they generally fit into your practice?

Ivonne Thein (IT): At the beginning of my career, I worked mainly in photography. I was interested in the body as a subject and was very connected to photography as a medium. I realized that images can be used quite idealistically and initially thought that by generating these images, I would support an unhealthy body image and unrealistic beauty ideals as well. So in the last couple of years, I extended my practice to sculpture and installation. The work I feel much better since I stopped eating chocolate is a rather ironic comment on today’s yoga/hipster/vegan lifestyles. I was interested in questioning why there’s no diversity in how bodies are represented on social media. It’s mostly about being skinny, healthy, and looking perfect. The various body parts in these works seem to belong together but on a closer look you see that the torso and the legs don’t match. The legs in their yoga pants are skinny and muscular but the upper body is more corpulent. The whole installation is using fitness tools like a rack and latex straps, things you would use in a gym, so I’m reinterpreting the aesthetics of mass-produced fitness products. I think they standardize the body in an unrealistic way.

JH: Right. Also in the two other installations mentioned, you use different lifestyle products and combine them with fragmented body parts. How much inspiration do you draw from your own experiences?

IT: I made The self and the other after becoming a mother. I had a strange encounter with a male curator, who told me that it would get tough to continue with my work as a mother. I was quite surprised about his boldness but it showed me there’s still a huge difference between being a male or female artist. Of course, I know that some things change once you’re a mother, but I didn’t expect to get such unsolicited “advice.” The ideal of the white male artist who can dedicate his whole life to art is still very prevalent today. So, the experience of being a mother is something I do incorporate into these works. Personally, motherhood dared me take more risks in my artistic practice. I think differently about the world and art and that’s positive! It makes me less self-centered. So, in general, I would say that motherhood can influence a woman’s practice in many good ways.

I feel much better since I stopped eating chocolate, 2019

Steel, latex, yoga mat, c-print on fabric, plastic, resin, pu foam, wig, acrylic paint.

JH: I think so too! Much more has to be done to accommodate “artists with child” and I’d like to discuss this issue in more detail later on. Looking at some of your older works, they seem more radical in how you use and expose the female body. Can you tell me about the shift between the latest installations that seem rather feminine—at least formally—versus your older body of work that has a rather shocking effect? And how does the female body in general play a part?

IT: In my newer works, I wanted to become more abstract about the body. They represent non-existent bodies and a mix of real images and 3-D renderings. I use tools to create fractures of the body. I wanted to explore the boundaries of the human body in terms of Posthumanism and avatars. This rather artificial idea of the body is what might make the works more abstract. I try to go away from a realistic human shape and just show fragments and close-ups of bodies, like the skin, hair, and limbs. I wanted to explore how far I can push the boundaries of the human form.

JH: Yes, I’d say that superficiality plays a part in these works—and with that, the distortion of seeing and being seen. In terms of content, I would connect these works to the one you created between 2006 and 2008 titled Thirty-Two Kilos (i.e. 70 pounds). Visually, I’d say they’re quite different, not to say shocking. Was that the intention?

IT: Thirty-Two Kilos was the beginning of my interest in the aspiration towards the perfect body image. The body is something we are born into but we can change and shape it. It’s a conscious decision to do so and this possibility is something the media is constantly trying to convey to us. The background for the Thirty-Two Kilos is the pro-ana movement, an underground group of young women that’s existed since the 1990’s. Their goal is to become thinner and thinner as they cherish the anorexic body and lifestyle.

JH: I read about this group. They are mostly young women, who challenge themselves to look thin, but basically they’re anorexic. It’s also called the “Thinspiration movement” and mainly happens on social media. It seems like they are supporting each other in becoming thin and those girls are probably on the verge of having mental and health problems. Why were you interested in this movement and is there a difference between “pro-ana” and anorexia?

IT: Yes, I’d say there is. In the pro-ana movement, girls are trying to become anorexic because they want to be part of a certain lifestyle. They want to fit into this group of other anorexic girls. They admire their thin bodies and share images of themselves online a lot. Generally, it is different to anorexia as this is a mental illness. There are several reasons why girls become anorexic and they rather stay private about it. The pro-ana girls publicly follow a very certain body image. During my research, I discovered there are strict rules to follow and they support each other in becoming thinner. In the end, it also poses a serious and sometimes fatal health risk as you know.

Thirty-Two Kilos, 2006

C-Print. Series of 14 Photographs.

31 x 21 in.

JH: So let’s talk about the work in more detail. In Thirty-Two Kilos we see young women posing in front of the camera. Their bodies are obviously anorexic, they are actually unrealistically thin, but not everyone would agree that their bodies are problematic and some might even recognize this extremely thin body type from advertising or fashion imagery—how does the connection to the beauty and fashion industry play into these works?

IT: When I was studying photography, I started to question the medium itself. Especially, while working with fashion photography, I wondered if I’m supporting this lifestyle as well? This changed my idea about photography and its role in society and the responsibility of the photographer. I use the aesthetics of fashion photography to point to where the role models come from but manipulate it to a degree of uncertainty. I want the viewer to question whether this is a “real” or photoshopped body and everyone has their own view on this. Some people think the models are too skinny, for others its okay. It often depends on their cultural backgrounds.

JH: So you photoshopped the bodies, which is a very common tool in fashion photography and advertising. At first sight, these models seemed unrealistically thin to me. Then I was unsure and thought maybe they could be real? And the title suggests that those models weigh 32 kilos (or 70 pounds), which seems like an impossibly low weight for sometime to live with...

IT: Yes, so the girls depicted here are not actually anorexic in real life—I used photoshop to make them look so. I apply these tools to show how reality and identity can be manipulated. I’m interested in showing how digitization changed our idea about the medium of photography. I didn't simply want to show how vague the border of perception about bodies is, but also to raise awareness on how important it is to question images these days. Especially with young girls in their adolescent period, their bodies are changing really fast. They get influenced and orient themselves by artificial standard constructed by the fashion industry and social media. Unfortunately, the education on how to read pictures—and filter the media—is still lacking but I hope that schools will become more aware about teaching these issues.

You know, paintings are easier to sell, 2019

3 channel video installation, full HD loop, sound

9:59 minutes

JH: I saw that some of your works are shared on social media and sometimes seen as inspiration for pro-ana girls. They regard the bodies of these models as normal and aspire to look like them. How do you feel about these reactions to your works?

IT: Of course it was not my intention to inspire anyone to aspire to these unrealistic body types—32 kilos is a critical weight that’s almost certainly deadly. My initial idea was to speak about the movement but also about the role of photography as a mass medium.

JH: Could you also have a productive discussion about the issues of anorexia and distorted body-consciousness with girls or adult women or was there mostly this kind of pushback?

IT: I did get criticized for glorifying anorexia by some people. But for me the open discussion is necessary. Even if some people regard these works in a negative way, I think it’s more important to have a discussion about these issues than to ignore that anorexia exists. In a way, it’s good to see that viewers are outraged about the models’ bodies. It shows that most people still have a healthy idea about the body and are weary of those who seek to distort it. I would be more worried if people just liked my works because of their aesthetics.

"The ideal of the white male artist who can dedicate his whole life to art is still very prevalent today. Personally, motherhood dared me take more risks in my artistic practice."

JH: And on a more personal level, do you have any experience with anorexia in your own surroundings?

IT: I think every work of mine, or every work of art in general, is personal, but I don’t know anyone who is suffering from anorexia. I did start to feel more and more uncomfortable while doing research on the pro-ana movement, but simply stopping to make fashion photography or not producing any art works about this topic wouldn’t stop the movement either. So, like I said, it’s important to start a conversation. And I hope that people feel weird about these bodies and not idealize them.

JH: This is another topic I wanted to discuss with you. The beauty and fashion industries are generating these images of the perfect body all around the world and I was wondering about your experiences in exhibiting these works in different locations and cultures?

IT: Definitely. I was invited to take part in a gallery exhibition in New York titled “Body Conscious.” I presented Thirty-Two Kilos there and in terms of publicity of my works I realized there were some differences to Europe. For example, in the US, the reproduction of Thirty-Two Kilos in newspapers included captions stating that those images were manipulated digitally. Apparently, the American press wanted to make sure that those models were not perceived as “real women.” That never happened anywhere else before and I thought it was rather strange. Maybe they do it for safety reasons and not get blamed for showing and supporting anorexia.

Another unexpected encounter happened in a bar in New York. I showed the exhibition catalogue to a friend when a strange man joined the discussion. When he saw the women in Thirty-Two Kilos he regarded them as beautiful and said they reminded him of Kate Moss. I was surprised but realized that this is another big problem. The more we show the images of very skinny models in the public, the more we’re normalize these bodies and, implicitly, regard healthy bodies as too big. It happens unconsciously!

JH: And can you also talk about any major differences in terms of reception in the art world?

IT: I’d say in Europe, people are more critical towards unhealthy bodies in general. And they were less shocked about seeing these models in an art context than in the United States. In my experience, when discussing these works in Europe, the conversation revolved around art and aesthetics. Viewers rather evaluated my execution than the bodies themselves. In the US, on the other hand, I had the feeling viewers were more concerned about the body image topic and not so much about the artwork itself. I didn’t intend it to be an educational piece, so I was surprised to see that the discussion around anorexia was taken much more seriously in the US. The reasons for why I chose this topic was much more discussed than anything else.

JH: Interesting. Do you think that this happened because the beauty industry and the aspiration towards the right Body Mass Index plays a much more important role in American society? I am thinking of Hollywood and how the film and fashion industries create these perfect but rather unrealistic images of the female but also the male body. For me, proclaiming that your works don’t depict “real” bodies is a rather worrying sign for a distorted body image in general. As we already said, the distinctions between a healthy (or attractive) body and a sick one are vague and can vary depending on where you are.

IT: Absolutely. On the one hand, many of these size zero role models come out of Hollywood, on the other hand, obesity is a very sincere problem in the US. I think more people die of being overweight than the other way around. It just shows that the media is shaping these body images and that they have a real impact on how we see ourselves. The media normalizes thin bodies, when in reality you don’t see them as much walking around in day to day life.

7 steps to become a good mother and remain a good artist, 2018.

Single channel video installation, full HD loop, sound, 06:30 min.

JH: So is this work a reaction to a certain lifestyle?

IT: One could say so. If you look at how many people are dealing with obesity, which especially affects less affluent classes in society. People with money can afford healthy food and fitness. The pro-ana movement and any other body-conscious movement is a lifestyle in which they can actively choose to participate.

JH: Talking about various body shapes, I would like to segue into another series of yours, titled Disobedient Bodies. Here you are including images of the sick and the aging body. Can you talk about this series?

IT: It’s another personal project of mine—I experienced how illness and death are taboo topics in our society and wanted to do something on this subject after I talked with a friend who suffered from breast cancer. She didn’t want other people to know that she was sick because she was afraid of being treated differently. At the same time, people were unsure how to approach her and talk about her illness. Another close friend had heart surgery and he experienced the same weariness. Consciously or unconsciously, we treat sick people differently because we are afraid of saying something wrong.

JH: Right. So in Disobedient Bodies we see close-up shots of wrinkles, moles, grey hair, leaking breasts, etc. It almost seems like an antitheses to the works we’ve previously discussed. Was this a conscious decision?

IT: Yes, they should act as a contrast to the perfect healthy bodies you see everyday on the media. We don’t see sick people, we don’t see old bodies. So I tried to highlight parts of the body which you don’t usually see. One of the hands, for instance, belongs to a woman who is 104 years old. I like to spread the idea that we all look different and that diversity is what makes us interesting—and the notion that illness and death shouldn’t be taboo. Disobedient Bodies is an ironic title reflecting the fact that change is a natural process of time.

JH: Not only the female but also the maternal body plays an essential role in some of your works. So lastly, I’d like to discuss the works where you’re dealing with motherhood. In 7 steps to become a good mother and remain a good artist you focus on the transition from being an artist to being an “artist with child” and tackle the associated fears and prejudices. Why is it important to talk about these issues?

IT: So the body you see in the work is actually my own. In the video, I try to change my body back to its former shape. For me, it’s totally obvious that the body cannot be the same as before giving birth, and this is the main point I'm trying to address in this work. I use my own body to talk about societal expectations of new mothers to look as if they’ve never given birth—and the idea that that transformation should take place as fast as possible. Like women in any other job, female artists feel this pressure a lot. It’s important to me to talk about this issue in an art world context. That’s why I’m showing the breast pump and am bathing in milk in the video—only when mothers have “produced” enough milk are they able to fully return to work. In the end, this work deals with the expectations and pressures of “artists with child,” which seem to be higher than the ones already imposed on female artists without children.

JH: From a feminist point of view, this has been a huge topic for a log time and we are continually working on normalizing the fact that artists are mothers but that this shouldn’t make a difference in how we approach their art, or in how we collaborate. That said, I guess you can still feel the double burden?

IT: It’s challenging. For me and for every woman. We have to weigh out how much time we spend at home with our children and how much time we put into our own work. I had the personal experience that female artists don’t talk about being a mother as they fear it could damage their careers and the value of their artworks. I am not separating it. Being a mother definitely changed my practice as an artist and I think it even changed to the better. I actually became more clear on what I want and more effective in terms of time management. I’m much more intuitive about what I’m doing and brave about taking risks in my artistic practice.

JH: That sounds very encouraging. Thanks!

Julia Hartmann

Julia Hartmann is an art historian and independent curator based in Vienna, Austria. She previously worked as Assistant Curator at the Vienna institutions Secession and Belvedere 21, and is currently a PhD candidate at the Academy of Fine Arts Vienna, with a research focus on all-female exhibition history and “women’s art” from China. Hartmann is also the co-founder of SALOON Vienna, an international network for women in the arts, and curates exhibitions that oscillate between feminism, digitization, and activism, including exhibition series such as Search for Feminism…The more you search, the less you find and Nothing Less. 100 Years of Women’s Suffrage. Hartmann was curator in residence at NODE Center for Curatorial Studies, Berlin, Rockbund Art Museum, Shanghai, and Residency Unlimited, New York. She frequently holds lectures and artist talks and publishes articles for online and print art publications.